What if someone asked you, "Is there a chance you could be wrong about the way you've interpreted the biblical texts sometimes used to condemn homosexual orientation?" How would you respond?
Yes, there is always the chance that we could be wrong. I am always open to hearing other arguments. I will listen to what someone has to say, but then I judge it myself and go with what makes the most sense.
I think that unless you have had life experience in this very controversial subject you can not possibly understand it enough to comment. I personally know a female that looks in the mirror and sees a male. Because of this she feels a sence of immorality if she she were to have a heterosexual relationship. She has been tormented her entire life with gender identity. She was brought up in Christian faith and is exactly why she is so tormented. As a result it has manifested into extreme bipolar which she deals with without medication because she does not believe in mind altering meds.And she is the most giving, non judgemental, non materialistic, kind person I have ever known. I can not understand how anyone, even my God can judge her harshly.
I would say it's not Christ in me to use Biblical texts to judge anyone, except myself. I've never met a human being yet who wasn't in need of redemption and healing--and more than once in a lifetime. I have to believe that confusion and torment are tools of the enemy. I was raised by a bi-polar mother, and my job is to forgive her behavior; it's God's place--not mine--to discern her heart and manage eternity.
I don't believe her torment is the "work of the devil" but reassurance that she has is not without conscience which is something that we would need to pray for. This subject is highly controversial. I have unconditional love for this person. There is no "confusion" and if it were possible she could change herself to fit into society's idea of "normal" (based on the Bible) she would in an instant...others that choose this lifestyle may argue they have no desire to change. I pray for peace of mind and tolerance from others for her.
I spent the last hour and a half replying to everyone and when I went to post it-it deleted it and gave me an error message :( I will retype my thought s and post soon. Promise!
OK, Lets try this again. @Ray-Your heart shines brightly brother and I have benefited once again from your wisdom.
@Mrs. D.-I understand your anguish and feel your frustration. I too have many close loved ones that share similar quandaries. I asked this question in hopes of encouraging conversation for all sides to benefit and grow and make positive changes. I know it has already greatly benefited me. Whenever we challenge ourselves in thought and belief it can have wonderful impact. I think the bible references it as iron sharpening iron.
@Musicfan-This is more of a conversation than an argument :) A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed." I was actually looking for something that’s relevant for today. Levitical law was for a different people and time, given to set apart the priests from the rest of the people. Not only that but both Jesus and Paul stated that this law doesn’t pertain to believers anymore. Plus if we’re gonna apply the verses in ch. 18 and 20 to our/others lives then we need to apply it ALL and that contains some pretty crazy stuff. Like no working on Saturday, No wearing mixed fabrics, No eating pork or shellfish, No tattoos. The list goes on and on. Not only do I fail at all of the above mentioned continually. Tattoos don’t come off :) so I’m pretty much screwed there.
Law/the bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn today and condemns sexual practices that we accept today. (See Deut. 22:13-22 & 25:11-12, Lev. 18:19, Mk. 10:1-12 &12:18-27) I'm certain you don't agree with these teachings from the bible (sorry to assume) and the list of acceptable practices goes on. The bible says that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy is acceptable, as is a king's having many concubines. Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11-13, and treatment of women as property are all accepted practices in the bible. On the other hand, there are strict prohibitions against interracial marriage, birth control, discussing or even naming a sexual organ, and seeing your parents naked (yuck). All of this is open to interpretation :) Seems ridiculous to even bring up old law.
I’m looking for answers that apply to today. I can’t find any direct answers. It’s all open to man’s interpretation based on old beliefs. I was asked where it was and I couldn’t give the answer. That’s why I’m asking. I’m not trying to change the bible. I genuinely want to know. In my search I can’t find where Jesus says anything about same-sex behavior and the Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
Where do we/christians go from here? I believe based on the lack of evidence that we are unjustly singling out a group of people and applying prejudices out of misunderstandings.
Chris, Your insight and ability to see how Biblical references may not apply in today's society is refreshing. I never seem to have had the most popular opinion on this subject but still always felt compelled to weigh in anyway!
@ Mrs. D.-Civil rights biblical debates started for African Americans in much the same way. They were never popular opinions but someone had to weigh in to start the ball rolling.
95% of so called "christians" are hypocritical fucks. How can they judge. The bible also says though shall not judge. I am a strong believer in christ but fuck all those christians who think they are almighty and better than anyone else. So yes - the bible contradicts itself ALL the time. Eddie!
From my own personal experience in this relm, I can tell you that my thoughts are God created ALL of US. Each and everyone with unique attributes. To be Christ-like is to not judge. I believe the Old Test. brings the culture of the judgemental Jews and not the love of Christ which is brought to us as a gift. And, I never did get the whole thing of "God" telling the people not to do this or that but killing in HIS name is OK and sleeping with others (which as culturally okay as long as they were slaves--which is another topic). The Old Test is a history and societal guideline for a culture. Yes, it contains some good moral information but also some really morbid acts. I personally don't let it get under my skin and ruin my awesome relationship with the Creator of all. :)
Below are "a few" comments from Facebook that never made it to the blog. I thought it would be nice to have them all here.
Jenny Edquest Saunders God specifically calls homosexuality a sin. Although I've known and cared about many gays and lesbians, my love pales in comparison to the Lord's love for them. It has been difficult to wrap my head around this, when I know them to be really great people. God's purpose is evidenced in his design of male and female. I do believe that should they truly turn to the Lord, His Holy Spirit would convict them of any wrongdoing. How can one live abundantly while living in sin?...After all, "shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Chris Thomas Jenny, Where specifically does God list Homosexuality as a sin? I can't find it. Also, is "living in sin" as a homosexual any different in God's eyes than "living in sin" as a liar or a glutton or one that's full of lust?
Chris Thomas asking...not arguing!
Jenny Edquest Saunders Pipe it down, Pastor...lol...how 'bout when God spoke to Moses in Lev 18..."you shall observe my judgements and My ordinances, to walk in them: I am the Lord your God...if a man does, he shall live by them...You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. IT IS AN ABOMINATION." I'd pretty much say that God feels it's a sin there in verse 22...and by living in sin, yes, all of those prior mentioned would be sins...remember when Jesus told the adulterer to "go and sin no more?" Do we believe that this is possible? I do.
Jonathan Wiles For the sake of discussion, on that line of thinking what other abominations are found in Leviticus? Yikes! Why hang to some of those laws and mandates and disregard so many of the others?
Chris Thomas Jenny, thanks for replying :) I guess I struggle with applying those versus to anyones lives today for a couple of reasons. 1. Because both Jesus and Paul stated that those laws don't pertain to Christian believers. 2. Like Jonathan pointed out earlier, there are a lot of things in those passages that are an "abomination". Like tattoos, round haircuts, touching pigskin(football) working on Saturday, wearing mixed fabrics, eating pork and shellfish. Which put you and me in the same category. But we don't apply those ridiculous laws to our lives. If we do then I'm in big trouble :) because tattoos don't come off. Why do we christians apply double standards by pickin and choosin what's important/not important to God? :)
Jenny Edquest Saunders I guess I can go have sex with the farm animals now!...thanks for givin me the go ahead...lol
Jonathan Wiles LOL!
Chris Thomas :) I wasn't trying to encourage a free for all on farm life so much as I was tryin to convey that we christians don't have the grounds to stand on when it comes to condemning a group of people by misinterpreted/outdated laws. I asked the question originally because I want discussion to bring light for me and for others on this volatile subject. I'm personally still searching scripture and want dialogue to continue.
Jeremiah Raines Romans 3: 19-20(King James)-"(19)Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20)Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." If you read Romans 1: 24-32 in the New Testament Paul talks about the guilt of sin. Homosexuality is one of those sins mentioned. The Bible goes on to say. Romans 2:1-2(King James)-"(1)Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. (2)But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things." Our job is to love people not to decide whether they are sinners or not. That is completely up to God.
Cindy Marshall McVey God is the only one who should judge us, period.
Jonathan Wiles In the words of Tupac (R.I.P.) - Only God can judge me.
Jenny Edquest Saunders I never said I condemn anyone. I want to be in agreement with God. He loved us, while we were yet sinners...If I lied to you and you knew it - would you think I've sinned?...Oh wait, I am excused b/c it doesn't apply to me - I can lie all I want b/c I am excused of sin?...
Chris Thomas I think you've misunderstood me and maybe I've misunserstood you. Communication via FB status is a tuff one
Jeremiah Raines Jenny your not excused of sin at all just forgiven. The Bible says that when you accept Jesus Christ as Savior you die to sin. Basically sin no longer controls your life. Your not a perfect person and you will make mistakes but you are serving Jesus so sin does not modivate who you are any more. Being more like Jesus does. There are a lot of values that we can hold as people for ourselves based on the teachings about God in the Bible. As far as understanding how God feels about any particular individual besides ourselves there is no way we could possibly know. You know so very little about that person compared to absolutely every about them. We don't know everything only God does. He's the only that is qualified to make that judgment. Jesus says to even love your enemies. Doesn't mean you let them walk all over you, but you can still be nice to them. God is love so we show that to the world. God uses us to touch other peoples lives to bring them closer to Him. Jesus died for everyone and that's the way we should make people feel. How they respond to work out their own salvation has a lot to do with them. Only Jesus can save!!!
Wyatt Moore Plus bear in mind, if one is quoting the "King James Bible", you must remember that prior to the reign of King James, the bible was printed in primarily either hebrew or latin, thereby making it unreadable to 99% of the population. King James decided this allowed the church too much control. So he collected up a group of monks and tasked them to translating the bible "so that the common man could read and understand it." After a year he went to check on their progress hoping to find an almost finished product. He found instead that only a few books of the old testament had been translated. The monks explained that there had been great eclesiastic debate as to the "true intent and meaning" of God's word in addition to the fact that no language translates perfectly into another. The King was so upset at the lack of progress that he had the entire group beheaded and their heads hung on pikes around the room. He brought in a 2nd group of monks pointed to the heads and explained that the last group spent a little too much time debating and not enough time translating.
Chris Thomas Grace has always been hard to grasp. Paul "writing to the Romans" struggled to get across the same things that we are discussing. The law vs Gods heart vs what we've been taught vs popular belief vs interpretation. One thing I do know is that I'm growing from all of this. I hope we can all grow from this :)
Chris Thomas @Wyatt-you should read a post I put up a week or so ago about the KJV. Its interesting. This year is the 400 anniv. Of that translation. I liked the point you made " no language translates perfectly into another" translations are where most of our interpretation conflicts come from.
Chris Thomas @Wyatt-you should read a post I put up a week or so ago about the KJV. Its interesting. This year is the 400 anniv. Of that translation. I liked the point you made " no language translates perfectly into another" translations are where most of our interpretation conflicts come from.
Chris Thomas @Wyatt-you should read a post I put up a week or so ago about the KJV. Its interesting. This year is the 400 anniv. Of that translation. I liked the point you made " no language translates perfectly into another" translations are where most of our interpretation conflicts come from.
Kim Delaney Yes, it's important to use tools that you can study the Scriptures in the original language like the Strong's and the Vine's
Kim Delaney I too tried to post on your blog and it didn't go through...bummer! I thought of the verse that says exchanging the natural for the un-natural. Romans 1:27
Kim Delaney Gen. 2:24
Kim Delaney Matthew 19:5 Ephesians 5:31,33 1 Tim. 3:2,12 These all are from the NT and speak of husband and wife relationships...if GOD 'approved' of same-sex marriages there would be guildelines to follow.
Kim Delaney Matthew talks about divorce...and the reasons for a divorce are adultery. It always refers to a man and a woman. Also, it just makes sense really...if GOD intended for same-sex
marriage why would he give us the command to be fruitful and multiply when it physically couldn't happen. Not to mention again speaking from 'experience' in the gay culture...when men are with men it comes with severe consequences. I have seen several men die of AIDS because they were with each other. Yes, I know hetersexual get AIDS too but it's because they have several partners that had several partners etc. GOD put these retrictions on us to PROTECT us! I had many gay guy friends and most of my gay gal friends were 'wounded' by the men they had dated and hurt them. I really think that the questions are coming out because Satan is putting so much spotlight on the gay community in just about EVERY movie and TV show. Think about how far we have come AWAY from the BIBLE basics. It doesn't mean that they do not apply to our culture now. There were reasons why the law was set...no we are not perfect and need a REDEEMER but that doesn't mean we throw up our hands and say the LAW doesn't benefit us. That's all for now...love talking about the PERFECT WORD of GOD!!! :)
Chris Thomas Wow!!! I'd hate to hear from you when you're not tired ;) I'm tired just reading all of your responses that don't answer my original question. I think you've missed the heart of it all. I never questioned what Gods "Perfect Word" said. I asked. Is there a chance you could be wrong about the way you've interpreted the biblical texts sometimes used to condemn homosexual orientation?"
Kim Delaney We are not to condemn anyone but to shed light in the darkness....there is no condemnation for those IN Christ. We must walk in the SPIRIT not the FLESH and of course we could be wrong but as far as homosexual relations being a sin it's pretty clear in the Bible that it is... Romans 8:1 & John 3:19 Sorry to have gotten off the original question but those verses came to mind.
Kim Delaney IF we could figure everything out we wouldn't need GOD either! ;) We are in a state of total depravity. The BIBLE is our guide and we make so many mistakes in our flesh...but it's intentional sin that sets us on a path that will take you far from God's will. We are justified through CHRIST not our own interpretation. Romans 5:18
I agree completely with Kim. You ask if it's possible that we've misinterpreted the Bible on the subject of homosexuality.
My answer is NO. I am not saying that we are infallible in all out translations, but this one is cut and dry. Read Romans 7:1-2, Paul says(this is the word of God breathed through man), "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."
Let me know how else to read that.... the entire chapter references man and woman, husband and wife, so unless you're advocating sex outside of marriage(which the NT view is pretty clear on) there is no other way to take this.
Homosexuality is a sin, just like adultery. It is also a sin like stealing or lying, both of which are grounds for church discipline. We aren't to condemn, but we are called to lovingly correct brothers and sisters in Christ, and to exercise church discipline.
I was reading through commentaries to help me get a better grasp of the day and age/circumstances for Paul’s letter to the Romans I think if someone has said something better than you can say it, then you should let them say it for you. Below is what I read (not my words). In Romans 1:26-27 the apostle Paul describes non-Jewish women who exchange "natural use for unnatural" and non-Jewish men who "leave the natural use of women, working shame with each other." This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that practice. But let's go back 2,000 years and try to understand why. Paul is writing this letter to Rome after his missionary tour of the Mediterranean. On his journey Paul had seen great temples built to honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other fertility gods and goddesses of sex and passion instead of the one true God the apostle honors. Apparently, these priests and priestesses engaged in some odd sexual behaviors -- including castrating themselves, carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young temple prostitutes (male and female) -- all to honor the gods of sex and pleasure.
Continued from above... The Bible is clear that sexuality is a gift from God. Our Creator celebrates our passion. But the Bible is also clear that when passion gets control of our lives, we're in deep trouble. When we live for pleasure, when we forget that we are God's children and that God has great dreams for our lives, we may end up serving the false gods of sex and passion, just as they did in Paul's time. In our obsession with pleasure, we may even walk away from the God who created us -- and in the process we may cause God to abandon all the great dreams God has for our lives. Did these priests and priestesses get into these behaviors because they were lesbian or gay? I don't think so. Did God abandon them because they were practicing homosexuals? No.
None of what you said addressed 1st Corinthians 7....
As for what you are saying, are you saying sex outside of marriage is okay? As long as we don't get caught up in it?
Yes, you are right that The Bible celebrates our sexuality. But it is only celebrated when it is exercised where he intended it to be, inside of marriage.
I am not saying that God abandons LBGTQ people, he doesn't abandon anyone in this life. But he WILL abandon those who aren't saved.
I am also not saying that we are to condemn them any more than other sinners. Christ died for sinners! But he also didn't pull any punches. We are to show them their Sin nature(and all manifestations of it) and explain their need for salvation.
As for fellow Christians, we are to come LOVINGLY to them, showing them in Scripture, where there actions are sinful, begging them to repent. If they aren't, we return with brothers and sisters in Christ.. continuing until, if they continue in sin, they are removed from the body of believers. This is not out of anger or to condemn. It is done out of LOVE! How can we let UNREPENTANT people continue to call themselves little Christs? If we do, we are DAMNING them to a false sense of security!! If we are unrepentant we are destined to be separated from God! How can you let someone think they are okay with God, if they are continuing to consciously rebel against God?
@Musicfan-Sorry for not addressing the 1 cor. statement yet :) I was still diggin around in Romans. I will look into that next. I personally have seen the problems that sex outside of "marriage" causes and don't advise or condone it because of the pain it has personally caused me.
I understand where your heart is on this issue and see what you're saying. Maybe I should ask another question to try and tangle this mess up a little more.
If a homosexual couple is "married" legally by the state and it's recognized by the state. (I assume that you would not recognize that as approved by God because he created a man and a women) and they think this is ok and are not consciously rebelling against God. would that be considered unrepentant? BTW - I'm not stating that I agree or disagree with this scenario, I just wondered it as I was typing.
Thanks again for all your time and dialogue on this subject.
Yes, it is unrepentant. They are either unsaved(and going to hell), or they are Christians and they are living in sin.
Now, here is the fine line... I am very uncomfortable saying this, because it is incredibly unlikely... If a homosexual couple were to receive the saving knowledge of Christ, and die before they are made aware of the sin of their lifestyle, I believe that they are still saved. They are covered by Christ's blood. However, if they are shown their sin, they are then in direct rebellion to God if they continue in it.
This is all to say, I believe that if we know Christ, we cannot do anything to "un-know" him. We are saved for eternity. If we sin against someone and die on the way home, I still think we are saved.
There is a condition though, a saving knowledge of Christ is evident by a repentant heart. If we are truly saved, when our sin is presented to us, by scripture or by our brothers and sisters in Christ, we are ashamed of it. Thus, we cannot be sure of someone else's salvation. We only know by their actions.
To wrap things up... A homosexual couple that is saved will repent of their sins and reject that lifestyle. If a homosexual couple claims to be saved and continues in this lifestyle until their death. Then I would say that their knowledge of Christ wasn't saving.
This is an incredibly hard thing to grasp, logically. so let me know if I can clarify anything...
sorry to leave you hangin. i disregarded the law because of Jesus and Pauls statements. But as i was reading 1 cor. I read ch. 9:10 & 10:11 i realized that there was a contradiction. In these verses Paul is stating that the scriptures/law were for past and future generations. Basically, there is no respect of time in the scriptures, making his statement in Rom. 3 a contradiction. So now my thought process is all screwed up. This really has me thinking. I need to meditate on this a little more.
I'm a little late on this but it took me a while to figure out what I wanted to say.
Our interpretation of scripture can always be wrong in any instance; the Word of God is perfect, we are not.
With that said...I think where Christians go wrong is not by thinking that homosexuality is a sin (even with room for interpretation the bible seems pretty clear) but by:
1- Thinking that homosexuality is the only "abomination" or that homosexuality is worse than every other sin: "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said,"Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.James 2:10 & 11 (ESV)"
All sin is equal in the eyes of God. Lets just look at sexual sin for the purpose of this conversation: any Sex outside of marriage (which the Bible says includes even lustful thinking) is a sin in the Bible. I'm pretty sure we've ALL been guilty of sexual sin at some point in our lives (and if you haven't…you've sinned in some other way) Isn't it great that we're all on the same level? That whether you've struggled with homosexuality, adultery, sex before marriage, porn addiction, lustful thinking, murder, etc; it's all the same before God and Jesus died to cover all of it! ("For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" it doesn't say whoever "except for people struggling with homosexuality" believes)
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2- Believing that anyone who has homosexual sin in there life (whether or not they profess Christ) is going to hell because they are "unrepentant"
This saddens me and it's a belief that is really popular among Christians. a recent survey stated that: 50% of male and 20% of female churchgoers have struggled or are struggling with an addiction to pornography, 30% of pastors are dealing it or have dealt with struggles with pornography. If these people died while still struggling would they go to hell? The majority of christians would say no. Homosexuality is no different. We're all sinners even after we become Christians.
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3- Thinking it is black and white, cut and dried 100% of the time.
I have a friend that is a hermaphrodite (a person who on a physical & hormonal level is both male and female). I have no idea what to do with that! really that's all I have to say on this one.
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4- Thinking that we have a right to judge other peoples sin anyways.
Does it say anywhere in the bible that it is ok to condemn and judge? If someone out there knows where this scripture is I'd love to see it! There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?- James 4:12 "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?- Matthew 7:1-4
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.- James 2:12-13
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Mercy triumphs over judgement… I know a lot of this strayed from the initial question, it's more a response to the ensuing conversation. Again, sorry if it was rambling!
Gina Dunn said: I have a friend that is a hermaphrodite (a person who on a physical & hormonal level is both male and female).
This brings up an excellent point.
Given the fact that this person is either "neither male nor female" or "both male and female" (depending on how you look at it). Whatever kind of sexual relationship "inside or outside of marriage" this person indulges in (according to the definition given by the responders above) will be a sinful one.
Did this person choose to be born this way? No
So can biblical sin be applied to a persons life if they didn't choose to be born that way? I say No!
Leviticus 20:13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Should we keep this law as well? Should we apply half of this law? Is half of this law still God's heart and the other half not? Who get's to decide what we apply and what we don't apply?
Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.", how else can the be understood?
ReplyDeleteYes, there is always the chance that we could be wrong. I am always open to hearing other arguments. I will listen to what someone has to say, but then I judge it myself and go with what makes the most sense.
ReplyDeleteI think that unless you have had life experience in this very controversial subject you can not possibly understand it enough to comment. I personally know a female that looks in the mirror and sees a male. Because of this she feels a sence of immorality if she she were to have a heterosexual relationship. She has been tormented her entire life with gender identity. She was brought up in Christian faith and is exactly why she is so tormented. As a result it has manifested into extreme bipolar which she deals with without medication because she does not believe in mind altering meds.And she is the most giving, non judgemental, non materialistic, kind person I have ever known. I can not understand how anyone, even my God can judge her harshly.
ReplyDeleteI would say it's not Christ in me to use Biblical texts to judge anyone, except myself. I've never met a human being yet who wasn't in need of redemption and healing--and more than once in a lifetime. I have to believe that confusion and torment are tools of the enemy. I was raised by a bi-polar mother, and my job is to forgive her behavior; it's God's place--not mine--to discern her heart and manage eternity.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe her torment is the "work of the devil" but reassurance that she has is not without conscience which is something that we would need to pray for. This subject is highly controversial. I have unconditional love for this person. There is no "confusion" and if it were possible she could change herself to fit into society's idea of "normal" (based on the Bible) she would in an instant...others that choose this lifestyle may argue they have no desire to change. I pray for peace of mind and tolerance from others for her.
ReplyDeleteI spent the last hour and a half replying to everyone and when I went to post it-it deleted it and gave me an error message :( I will retype my thought s and post soon. Promise!
ReplyDeleteOK, Lets try this again.
ReplyDelete@Ray-Your heart shines brightly brother and I have benefited once again from your wisdom.
@Mrs. D.-I understand your anguish and feel your frustration. I too have many close loved ones that share similar quandaries. I asked this question in hopes of encouraging conversation for all sides to benefit and grow and make positive changes. I know it has already greatly benefited me. Whenever we challenge ourselves in thought and belief it can have wonderful impact. I think the bible references it as iron sharpening iron.
@Musicfan-This is more of a conversation than an argument :) A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed." I was actually looking for something that’s relevant for today. Levitical law was for a different people and time, given to set apart the priests from the rest of the people. Not only that but both Jesus and Paul stated that this law doesn’t pertain to believers anymore. Plus if we’re gonna apply the verses in ch. 18 and 20 to our/others lives then we need to apply it ALL and that contains some pretty crazy stuff. Like no working on Saturday, No wearing mixed fabrics, No eating pork or shellfish, No tattoos. The list goes on and on. Not only do I fail at all of the above mentioned continually. Tattoos don’t come off :) so I’m pretty much screwed there.
Law/the bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn today and condemns sexual practices that we accept today. (See Deut. 22:13-22 & 25:11-12, Lev. 18:19, Mk. 10:1-12 &12:18-27) I'm certain you don't agree with these teachings from the bible (sorry to assume) and the list of acceptable practices goes on. The bible says that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy is acceptable, as is a king's having many concubines. Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11-13, and treatment of women as property are all accepted practices in the bible. On the other hand, there are strict prohibitions against interracial marriage, birth control, discussing or even naming a sexual organ, and seeing your parents naked (yuck). All of this is open to interpretation :) Seems ridiculous to even bring up old law.
I’m looking for answers that apply to today. I can’t find any direct answers. It’s all open to man’s interpretation based on old beliefs. I was asked where it was and I couldn’t give the answer. That’s why I’m asking. I’m not trying to change the bible. I genuinely want to know. In my search I can’t find where Jesus says anything about same-sex behavior and the Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
Where do we/christians go from here? I believe based on the lack of evidence that we are unjustly singling out a group of people and applying prejudices out of misunderstandings.
Chris, Your insight and ability to see how Biblical references may not apply in today's society is refreshing. I never seem to have had the most popular opinion on this subject but still always felt compelled to weigh in anyway!
ReplyDelete@ Mrs. D.-Civil rights biblical debates started for African Americans in much the same way. They were never popular opinions but someone had to weigh in to start the ball rolling.
ReplyDelete95% of so called "christians" are hypocritical fucks. How can they judge. The bible also says though shall not judge. I am a strong believer in christ but fuck all those christians who think they are almighty and better than anyone else. So yes - the bible contradicts itself ALL the time. Eddie!
ReplyDeleteFrom my own personal experience in this relm, I can tell you that my thoughts are God created ALL of US. Each and everyone with unique attributes. To be Christ-like is to not judge. I believe the Old Test. brings the culture of the judgemental Jews and not the love of Christ which is brought to us as a gift.
ReplyDeleteAnd, I never did get the whole thing of "God" telling the people not to do this or that but killing in HIS name is OK and sleeping with others (which as culturally okay as long as they were slaves--which is another topic).
The Old Test is a history and societal guideline for a culture. Yes, it contains some good moral information but also some really morbid acts. I personally don't let it get under my skin and ruin my awesome relationship with the Creator of all. :)
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ReplyDeleteBelow are "a few" comments from Facebook that never made it to the blog. I thought it would be nice to have them all here.
ReplyDeleteJenny Edquest Saunders
God specifically calls homosexuality a sin. Although I've known and cared about many gays and lesbians, my love pales in comparison to the Lord's love for them. It has been difficult to wrap my head around this, when I know them to be really great people. God's purpose is evidenced in his design of male and female. I do believe that should they truly turn to the Lord, His Holy Spirit would convict them of any wrongdoing. How can one live abundantly while living in sin?...After all, "shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Chris Thomas Jenny, Where specifically does God list Homosexuality as a sin? I can't find it. Also, is "living in sin" as a homosexual any different in God's eyes than "living in sin" as a liar or a glutton or one that's full of lust?
Chris Thomas asking...not arguing!
Jenny Edquest Saunders
Pipe it down, Pastor...lol...how 'bout when God spoke to Moses in Lev 18..."you shall observe my judgements and My ordinances, to walk in them: I am the Lord your God...if a man does, he shall live by them...You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. IT IS AN ABOMINATION." I'd pretty much say that God feels it's a sin there in verse 22...and by living in sin, yes, all of those prior mentioned would be sins...remember when Jesus told the adulterer to "go and sin no more?" Do we believe that this is possible? I do.
Jonathan Wiles For the sake of discussion, on that line of thinking what other abominations are found in Leviticus? Yikes! Why hang to some of those laws and mandates and disregard so many of the others?
Chris Thomas
Jenny, thanks for replying :) I guess I struggle with applying those versus to anyones lives today for a couple of reasons. 1. Because both Jesus and Paul stated that those laws don't pertain to Christian believers. 2. Like Jonathan pointed out earlier, there are a lot of things in those passages that are an "abomination". Like tattoos, round haircuts, touching pigskin(football) working on Saturday, wearing mixed fabrics, eating pork and shellfish. Which put you and me in the same category. But we don't apply those ridiculous laws to our lives. If we do then I'm in big trouble :) because tattoos don't come off. Why do we christians apply double standards by pickin and choosin what's important/not important to God? :)
Jenny Edquest Saunders I guess I can go have sex with the farm animals now!...thanks for givin me the go ahead...lol
Jonathan Wiles LOL!
Chris Thomas :) I wasn't trying to encourage a free for all on farm life so much as I was tryin to convey that we christians don't have the grounds to stand on when it comes to condemning a group of people by misinterpreted/outdated laws. I asked the question originally because I want discussion to bring light for me and for others on this volatile subject. I'm personally still searching scripture and want dialogue to continue.
Jeremiah Raines
ReplyDeleteRomans 3: 19-20(King James)-"(19)Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20)Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." If you read Romans 1: 24-32 in the New Testament Paul talks about the guilt of sin. Homosexuality is one of those sins mentioned. The Bible goes on to say. Romans 2:1-2(King James)-"(1)Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. (2)But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things." Our job is to love people not to decide whether they are sinners or not. That is completely up to God.
Cindy Marshall McVey God is the only one who should judge us, period.
Jonathan Wiles In the words of Tupac (R.I.P.) - Only God can judge me.
Jenny Edquest Saunders I never said I condemn anyone. I want to be in agreement with God. He loved us, while we were yet sinners...If I lied to you and you knew it - would you think I've sinned?...Oh wait, I am excused b/c it doesn't apply to me - I can lie all I want b/c I am excused of sin?...
Chris Thomas I think you've misunderstood me and maybe I've misunserstood you. Communication via FB status is a tuff one
Jeremiah Raines
Jenny your not excused of sin at all just forgiven. The Bible says that when you accept Jesus Christ as Savior you die to sin. Basically sin no longer controls your life. Your not a perfect person and you will make mistakes but you are serving Jesus so sin does not modivate who you are any more. Being more like Jesus does. There are a lot of values that we can hold as people for ourselves based on the teachings about God in the Bible. As far as understanding how God feels about any particular individual besides ourselves there is no way we could possibly know. You know so very little about that person compared to absolutely every about them. We don't know everything only God does. He's the only that is qualified to make that judgment. Jesus says to even love your enemies. Doesn't mean you let them walk all over you, but you can still be nice to them. God is love so we show that to the world. God uses us to touch other peoples lives to bring them closer to Him. Jesus died for everyone and that's the way we should make people feel. How they respond to work out their own salvation has a lot to do with them. Only Jesus can save!!!
Wyatt Moore
ReplyDeletePlus bear in mind, if one is quoting the "King James Bible", you must remember that prior to the reign of King James, the bible was printed in primarily either hebrew or latin, thereby making it unreadable to 99% of the population. King James decided this allowed the church too much control. So he collected up a group of monks and tasked them to translating the bible "so that the common man could read and understand it." After a year he went to check on their progress hoping to find an almost finished product. He found instead that only a few books of the old testament had been translated. The monks explained that there had been great eclesiastic debate as to the "true intent and meaning" of God's word in addition to the fact that no language translates perfectly into another. The King was so upset at the lack of progress that he had the entire group beheaded and their heads hung on pikes around the room. He brought in a 2nd group of monks pointed to the heads and explained that the last group spent a little too much time debating and not enough time translating.
Chris Thomas Grace has always been hard to grasp. Paul "writing to the Romans" struggled to get across the same things that we are discussing. The law vs Gods heart vs what we've been taught vs popular belief vs interpretation. One thing I do know is that I'm growing from all of this. I hope we can all grow from this :)
Chris Thomas @Wyatt-you should read a post I put up a week or so ago about the KJV. Its interesting. This year is the 400 anniv. Of that translation. I liked the point you made " no language translates perfectly into another" translations are where most of our interpretation conflicts come from.
Chris Thomas @Wyatt-you should read a post I put up a week or so ago about the KJV. Its interesting. This year is the 400 anniv. Of that translation. I liked the point you made " no language translates perfectly into another" translations are where most of our interpretation conflicts come from.
Chris Thomas @Wyatt-you should read a post I put up a week or so ago about the KJV. Its interesting. This year is the 400 anniv. Of that translation. I liked the point you made " no language translates perfectly into another" translations are where most of our interpretation conflicts come from.
ReplyDeleteKim Delaney Yes, it's important to use tools that you can study the Scriptures in the original language like the Strong's and the Vine's
Kim Delaney I too tried to post on your blog and it didn't go through...bummer! I thought of the verse that says exchanging the natural for the un-natural. Romans 1:27
Kim Delaney Gen. 2:24
Kim Delaney Matthew 19:5 Ephesians 5:31,33 1 Tim. 3:2,12 These all are from the NT and speak of husband and wife relationships...if GOD 'approved' of same-sex marriages there would be guildelines to follow.
Kim Delaney
Matthew talks about divorce...and the reasons for a divorce are adultery. It always refers to a man and a woman. Also, it just makes sense really...if GOD intended for same-sex
marriage why would he give us the command to be fruitful and multiply when it physically couldn't happen. Not to mention again speaking from 'experience' in the gay culture...when men are with men it comes with severe consequences. I have seen several men die of AIDS because they were with each other. Yes, I know hetersexual get AIDS too but it's because they have several partners that had several partners etc. GOD put these retrictions on us to PROTECT us! I had many gay guy friends and most of my gay gal friends were 'wounded' by the men they had dated and hurt them. I really think that the questions are coming out because Satan is putting so much spotlight on the gay community in just about EVERY movie and TV show. Think about how far we have come AWAY from the BIBLE basics. It doesn't mean that they do not apply to our culture now. There were reasons why the law was set...no we are not perfect and need a REDEEMER but that doesn't mean we throw up our hands and say the LAW doesn't benefit us. That's all for now...love talking about the PERFECT WORD of GOD!!! :)
ReplyDeleteChris Thomas Wow!!! I'd hate to hear from you when you're not tired ;) I'm tired just reading all of your responses that don't answer my original question. I think you've missed the heart of it all. I never questioned what Gods "Perfect Word" said. I asked. Is there a chance you could be wrong about the way you've interpreted the biblical texts sometimes used to condemn homosexual orientation?"
Kim Delaney We are not to condemn anyone but to shed light in the darkness....there is no condemnation for those IN Christ. We must walk in the SPIRIT not the FLESH and of course we could be wrong but as far as homosexual relations being a sin it's pretty clear in the Bible that it is... Romans 8:1 & John 3:19 Sorry to have gotten off the original question but those verses came to mind.
Kim Delaney IF we could figure everything out we wouldn't need GOD either! ;) We are in a state of total depravity. The BIBLE is our guide and we make so many mistakes in our flesh...but it's intentional sin that sets us on a path that will take you far from God's will. We are justified through CHRIST not our own interpretation. Romans 5:18
I agree completely with Kim. You ask if it's possible that we've misinterpreted the Bible on the subject of homosexuality.
ReplyDeleteMy answer is NO. I am not saying that we are infallible in all out translations, but this one is cut and dry. Read Romans 7:1-2, Paul says(this is the word of God breathed through man), "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."
Let me know how else to read that.... the entire chapter references man and woman, husband and wife, so unless you're advocating sex outside of marriage(which the NT view is pretty clear on) there is no other way to take this.
Homosexuality is a sin, just like adultery. It is also a sin like stealing or lying, both of which are grounds for church discipline. We aren't to condemn, but we are called to lovingly correct brothers and sisters in Christ, and to exercise church discipline.
Great insight guys. I'm diggin around in commentaries for background history on Romans for context.
ReplyDeleteSorry, that's 1st Corinthians 7 :P
ReplyDeleteI was reading through commentaries to help me get a better grasp of the day and age/circumstances for Paul’s letter to the Romans I think if someone has said something better than you can say it, then you should let them say it for you. Below is what I read (not my words).
ReplyDeleteIn Romans 1:26-27 the apostle Paul describes non-Jewish women who exchange "natural use for unnatural" and non-Jewish men who "leave the natural use of women, working shame with each other."
This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that practice. But let's go back 2,000 years and try to understand why.
Paul is writing this letter to Rome after his missionary tour of the Mediterranean. On his journey Paul had seen great temples built to honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other fertility gods and goddesses of sex and passion instead of the one true God the apostle honors. Apparently, these priests and priestesses engaged in some odd sexual behaviors -- including castrating themselves, carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young temple prostitutes (male and female) -- all to honor the gods of sex and pleasure.
Continued from above...
ReplyDeleteThe Bible is clear that sexuality is a gift from God. Our Creator celebrates our passion. But the Bible is also clear that when passion gets control of our lives, we're in deep trouble.
When we live for pleasure, when we forget that we are God's children and that God has great dreams for our lives, we may end up serving the false gods of sex and passion, just as they did in Paul's time. In our obsession with pleasure, we may even walk away from the God who created us -- and in the process we may cause God to abandon all the great dreams God has for our lives.
Did these priests and priestesses get into these behaviors because they were lesbian or gay? I don't think so. Did God abandon them because they were practicing homosexuals? No.
None of what you said addressed 1st Corinthians 7....
ReplyDeleteAs for what you are saying, are you saying sex outside of marriage is okay? As long as we don't get caught up in it?
Yes, you are right that The Bible celebrates our sexuality. But it is only celebrated when it is exercised where he intended it to be, inside of marriage.
I am not saying that God abandons LBGTQ people, he doesn't abandon anyone in this life. But he WILL abandon those who aren't saved.
I am also not saying that we are to condemn them any more than other sinners. Christ died for sinners! But he also didn't pull any punches. We are to show them their Sin nature(and all manifestations of it) and explain their need for salvation.
As for fellow Christians, we are to come LOVINGLY to them, showing them in Scripture, where there actions are sinful, begging them to repent. If they aren't, we return with brothers and sisters in Christ.. continuing until, if they continue in sin, they are removed from the body of believers. This is not out of anger or to condemn. It is done out of LOVE! How can we let UNREPENTANT people continue to call themselves little Christs? If we do, we are DAMNING them to a false sense of security!! If we are unrepentant we are destined to be separated from God! How can you let someone think they are okay with God, if they are continuing to consciously rebel against God?
@Musicfan-Sorry for not addressing the 1 cor. statement yet :) I was still diggin around in Romans. I will look into that next. I personally have seen the problems that sex outside of "marriage" causes and don't advise or condone it because of the pain it has personally caused me.
ReplyDeleteI understand where your heart is on this issue and see what you're saying. Maybe I should ask another question to try and tangle this mess up a little more.
If a homosexual couple is "married" legally by the state and it's recognized by the state. (I assume that you would not recognize that as approved by God because he created a man and a women) and they think this is ok and are not consciously rebelling against God. would that be considered unrepentant? BTW - I'm not stating that I agree or disagree with this scenario, I just wondered it as I was typing.
Thanks again for all your time and dialogue on this subject.
Yes, it is unrepentant. They are either unsaved(and going to hell), or they are Christians and they are living in sin.
ReplyDeleteNow, here is the fine line... I am very uncomfortable saying this, because it is incredibly unlikely... If a homosexual couple were to receive the saving knowledge of Christ, and die before they are made aware of the sin of their lifestyle, I believe that they are still saved. They are covered by Christ's blood. However, if they are shown their sin, they are then in direct rebellion to God if they continue in it.
This is all to say, I believe that if we know Christ, we cannot do anything to "un-know" him. We are saved for eternity. If we sin against someone and die on the way home, I still think we are saved.
There is a condition though, a saving knowledge of Christ is evident by a repentant heart. If we are truly saved, when our sin is presented to us, by scripture or by our brothers and sisters in Christ, we are ashamed of it. Thus, we cannot be sure of someone else's salvation. We only know by their actions.
To wrap things up... A homosexual couple that is saved will repent of their sins and reject that lifestyle. If a homosexual couple claims to be saved and continues in this lifestyle until their death. Then I would say that their knowledge of Christ wasn't saving.
This is an incredibly hard thing to grasp, logically. so let me know if I can clarify anything...
Erik
sorry to leave you hangin. i disregarded the law because of Jesus and Pauls statements. But as i was reading 1 cor. I read ch. 9:10 & 10:11 i realized that there was a contradiction. In these verses Paul is stating that the scriptures/law were for past and future generations. Basically, there is no respect of time in the scriptures, making his statement in Rom. 3 a contradiction. So now my thought process is all screwed up. This really has me thinking. I need to meditate on this a little more.
ReplyDeleteI'm a little late on this but it took me a while to figure out what I wanted to say.
ReplyDeleteOur interpretation of scripture can always be wrong in any instance; the Word of God is perfect, we are not.
With that said...I think where Christians go wrong is not by thinking that homosexuality is a sin (even with room for interpretation the bible seems pretty clear) but by:
1- Thinking that homosexuality is the only "abomination" or that homosexuality is worse than every other sin:
"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said,"Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.James 2:10 & 11 (ESV)"
All sin is equal in the eyes of God. Lets just look at sexual sin for the purpose of this conversation: any Sex outside of marriage (which the Bible says includes even lustful thinking) is a sin in the Bible. I'm pretty sure we've ALL been guilty of sexual sin at some point in our lives (and if you haven't…you've sinned in some other way) Isn't it great that we're all on the same level? That whether you've struggled with homosexuality, adultery, sex before marriage, porn addiction, lustful thinking, murder, etc; it's all the same before God and Jesus died to cover all of it! ("For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" it doesn't say whoever "except for people struggling with homosexuality" believes)
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2- Believing that anyone who has homosexual sin in there life (whether or not they profess Christ) is going to hell because they are "unrepentant"
This saddens me and it's a belief that is really popular among Christians. a recent survey stated that: 50% of male and 20% of female churchgoers have struggled or are struggling with an addiction to pornography, 30% of pastors are dealing it or have dealt with struggles with pornography. If these people died while still struggling would they go to hell? The majority of christians would say no. Homosexuality is no different. We're all sinners even after we become Christians.
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3- Thinking it is black and white, cut and dried 100% of the time.
I have a friend that is a hermaphrodite (a person who on a physical & hormonal level is both male and female). I have no idea what to do with that! really that's all I have to say on this one.
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4- Thinking that we have a right to judge other peoples sin anyways.
Does it say anywhere in the bible that it is ok to condemn and judge? If someone out there knows where this scripture is I'd love to see it!
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?- James 4:12
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?- Matthew 7:1-4
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.- James 2:12-13
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Mercy triumphs over judgement…
I know a lot of this strayed from the initial question, it's more a response to the ensuing conversation. Again, sorry if it was rambling!
Gina Dunn said: I have a friend that is a hermaphrodite (a person who on a physical & hormonal level is both male and female).
ReplyDeleteThis brings up an excellent point.
Given the fact that this person is either "neither male nor female" or "both male and female" (depending on how you look at it). Whatever kind of sexual relationship "inside or outside of marriage" this person indulges in (according to the definition given by the responders above) will be a sinful one.
Did this person choose to be born this way? No
So can biblical sin be applied to a persons life if they didn't choose to be born that way? I say No!
WHAT SAY YOU?
I think this deserves it's own blog.
I say I agree with you!
ReplyDeleteLeviticus 20:13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
ReplyDeleteShould we keep this law as well? Should we apply half of this law? Is half of this law still God's heart and the other half not? Who get's to decide what we apply and what we don't apply?